No Moods, Ads or Cutesy Fucking Icons

Israel eh? Deeply disappointing.

Not to argue for anon, but what have the American press got to do with it?

You are breaking the cultural boycott of a state that has (just to take a recent example) spent the entire summer openly maiming and murdering imprisoned civilians with sniper fire. Im sure you have your reasons, but I for one am surprised that someone who generally seems so thoughtful and compassionate would make such a decision.

Let’s all just look at the pretty pictures, mmkay?

Peter Watts: Why is it okay to break bread with people in Beijing, but not Tel Aviv?

I have no issue with either alone. What chafed me to respond was your clear implication that the film festival’s moniker only became ironic once the victims attempted to fight back, as though weekly massacres are a utopian staple. My post added causative context for the volleys you mentioned, in as flippant and insulting a manner as possible.

Your subsequent posts indicate that my reaction was misaimed, and for that I apologize. Rash interpretation of poor wording was no justification for a hot temper.

With all due respect these are not good arguments Peter, and I think you are aware of this.

However:

Peter Watts: If I did, I would never visit Ireland because of your nation’s backward views on abortion.

You could probably have chosen a better example there. We finally repealed the 8th amendment last year, the first chance we’ve gotten since 1983, after every other vote on the issue since ’83 rejected attempts to copperfasten the restrictions.

Peter Watts:So here’s a question for you, droid. You’ve hung around on this blog long enough. You’ve seen me post datelines from Russia, and China, and Poland. You’ve never complained before. Should I infer from this that you have no problem with the administrations of Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping?

Why is it okay to break bread with people in Beijing, but not Tel Aviv?

You’ve conflated several issues there. Poland certainly doesnt belong there as, despite their current government, theyre not, to my knowledge occupying another country or involved in any wars or major human rights abuses.

Russia and China, sure. Huge nations with a vast spectrum of activities, but both with fairly despicable records in their treatment of both their own citizens and victims of their wars.

There are fundamental differences though. Russia and China are both far too big for a BDS campaign to have a signifcant effect. Russia and China are not desperate to characterise themselves as liberal western democracies. Russia and China do not advertise their cultural integration as evidence of same and most crucally, Russia and China’s victims have not called for a cultural boycott of Russia and China.

This is the crux of the matter. Palestinian civil society has called for BDS in solidarity with their cause and to aid in ending a brutal occupation which affects every sphere of their existence.

And yes, there are plenty of decent people in Israel who are appalled at the acts of their government (not as many as might be hoped judging by opinion polls), and yes, Im sure many of those people are the same kinds of people you will be hanging out with, but it cannot be deined that making that journey is a politcal act which sends a political message, however inconsequential that may seem.

Here’s something id ask you to consider. Givent that the arguments you have made here would also apply to historical situaitons, if this was the mid-1980’s, would you attend a convention in apartheid South Africa?

This post is turning out more interesting than expected.

Some personal observations: When I lived in the Middle East I found it odd that the one country I had to be careful not to let stamp my passport was Israel. They’d let me in with stamps from every despotic country in the region, while most of those countries wouldn’t let me in with an Israeli stamp. In Cairo El Al landed with their entire flight crew – they weren’t being paranoid; many people in the region really are out to get them. I found conversations in the region would often be quite normal until Israel came up, then people would lose their shit. It was ridiculous.

Israel isn’t blameless, but the creation of the country is a direct result of how other countries have treated Jews. At this point, most Israelis were not alive when the country was created, so the question starts to become, when deciding who has a right to live where, how far back do you want to go?

Comparisons to South Africa are off-base. Jerusalem and the “right of return” have been sticking points in negotiations that have no parallel in the history of South Africa.

I can’t help but wonder, had Watts’ friend just returned from Saudi Arabia, if the reaction would have been as virulent.

I understand the attitude of the independent observer visiting various countries for various reasons and seeing many people around with different values. Their opinion is important, and your profession as writer or journalist allows you to balance it. But it is not that simple when you start to take sides eventually, even subtly.

Peter Watts: But news flash: I’m not going to be hanging out with any of the people who do those things.

Yet in the case of Lviv you did. Not to be confused with the people who directly and openly terrorise people of their own country, treat them as invaders and a vermin for their culture and language. But you were repeating the words about “hybrid war” and “invasion” and so on – they belong to them and their supporters. And while I can not fully underestimate the power of ignorance projected by contemporary liberal media, I fail to understand how can an educated person fail to notice such horrendously obvious substitution of values.

https://economics.unian.info/10339455-imf-expects-ukrainian-authorities-will-increase-heating-tariffs.html
https://news.un.org/en/story/2018/11/1025861

Phil:
Comparisons to South Africa are off-base. Jerusalem and the “right of return” have been sticking points in negotiations that have no parallel in the history of South Africa.

Apartheid was a unique historical scenario, however there are significant and obvious parallels. The Bantustan system of control and coercion in the West Bank. Segregated infrastructure and services. Rampant discrimination on ethnic and racial grounds. Disenfranchisement and lack of representation of Arab Israelis. VIcious and unrelenting dehumanisation and demonisation of Palestinians in politics, culture and media.

Israel was founded and exists as a Jewish ethno-state, which is why it is now being held up as an example by white nationalists like Richard Spencer as a model.This is why people like Desmond Tutu have no compunction about using the word apartheid to describe it. Personally I think the best description is: ‘Apartheid with Israeli characteristics’.

FactsChecker: Do you have any evidence for that? I would really like know.

This is from 2013, no doubt technology has since improved. I seem to remember reading an article in which Israeli school kids went to visit the control room.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBW9P6mragU

droid,

Israel isn’t blameless – a number of its actions are only explicable as the expression of a minority (as we see in other religions) who wish to push an extremist agenda. Most Israelis would probably like things to settle down if there was a willing peace partner, but I wonder how honest even those countries apparently not openly hostile to Israel are being. Iran is held up as the country most interested in seeing Israel pushed into the Med, but the Middle East Lonely Planet Guide I shipped into Saudi eventually arrived at my house with the Israel section carefully cut out. Maps in that country did not include Israel.

Thinking of Saudi, most of your description of Israel could apply equally to Saudi Arabia in relation to the Sunni Saud and Wahabi control of the Shiite majority population in the oil field regions, occupation of Yemini land in the south, and the segregation of Muslim and non-Muslim services and access. This does not excuse some Israeli actions, but again I wonder at the antipathy some people hold for Israel when there are so many other states and regimes equally deserving (each for their own unique reasons) of antipathy but which are accorded only passing scorn, if that. I find this even more puzzling given that the continued existence of most of these states is not nearly as tenuous as Israel’s would be if it did not maintain a raised level of engagement. (Regarding El Al, I meant to say that they fly in their entire ground crew – not flight crew, which is a given – which other Middle Eastern carriers do not find necessary to do.)

There is no guilt, just causes.
I’d say, the big beach ghetto screwed it up: Freaking out a quarter of the planet’s population, while relying on a superpower prone to betray its allies every 4 years, doesn’t sound like a recipe for longevity. The Muslim world is getting younger and stronger, the West is getting older and weaker. If I was Palestinian, I’d give the Israelis all the land they wanted, let them build infrastructure and towns, provided that all the synagogues face Mecca. Lucky me, I miss the Jewish culture in Europe. But I’d prefer people to keep their lives and homes, regardless of their ethnicity.
You can’t expect a country started in racist, colonialist times not to introduce racist, colonialist policies. It seemed to work, so they stuck to it, not expecting that the Holocaust shield, allowing them to do whatever they pleased, would ever fade. Well, we’re too busy preparing the mass murders of the future to regret the mass murders of the past. Would you blame present-day Jews for the biblical Canaan genocides?
Israelis and Palestinians together form a highly functional, stable engine of hate, a shredder for humans. The cultural operating system programs people from childhood on, grinds them into its screws and cogwheels. Even if teleported to another country, they try to reconstruct the death machine, because that’s the only system they can function in. Feeling sorry for your crimes excuses these crimes, gives you the clear conscience of a sociopath that you need to keep going (it’s not just Israel, it’s a feature of mankind). It’s a healthy, strong organism that’s found its ecological niche – no matter how much its components suffer, such a successful top-notch beast won’t change from within. Just like the Great White Shark, it’ll carry on till harpoon day.
That’s why it’s important for the artists, outsiders and eccentrics from all the world to enter such systems. Only a constant influx of new DNA, new codes, can cause mutations. Small cells of ideas, bubbles of insanity. Sometimes, cancer is the way to go.
It’s like the Poles and Ukrainians: There’s a lot in the past you can never forget or forgive. You don’t have to. You just need to realize, you don’t want your children to go through this, and if it means swallowing down your hate, so be it.

Phil: I find this even more puzzling given that the continued existence of most of these states is not nearly as tenuous as Israel’s would be if it did not maintain a raised level of engagement.

Surely not the “we must exterminate the natives lest they get uppity and destroy us” argument again. I mean, it’s almost 2019. Isn’t it time for at least a creative remake of the old tune? Something that isn’t the same-old-same-old with an electro-pop beat sampled in?

Phil: Most Israelis would probably like things to settle down if there was a willing peace partner

Indeed. If those rebellious, silly children would only consent to being kept prisoners on their own land, starved and shot at for sport, the Middle East would become an oasis of peace and prosperity.

Phil: Thinking of Saudi, most of your description of Israel could apply equally to Saudi Arabia in relation to the Sunni Saud and Wahabi control of the Shiite majority population in the oil field regions, occupation of Yemini land in the south, and the segregation of Muslim and non-Muslim services and access.

Holy whataboutism, Batman!

I mean, segregation of services is pretty bad, but concentration camps and wholesale slaughter of civilians are still a few degrees worse in my book. Maybe I’m a little old-fashioned about my genocidal politics.

Although I don’t doubt that the Saudis would kick it up a notch, given half a chance. They already seem to have gotten away with it in Yemen.

Peter Watts
So’s the USA. Unless you believe that Israel would have survived this long without constant US support— and unless you don’t believe that the US will continue to prop up that regime economically and militarily, regardless of third-party boycotts— then it seems to me that your reasons for letting Russia and China off the hook apply to Israel/US as well. The major difference is an extra step in the wire transfers.

Activism is not simply a moral project, there is also a practical aspect. You focus your efforts on areas where you have the best possibilities to affect change. The US, China and Russia are simply to big, too integrated with the world economy to be affected by a boycott.

I’m not entirely sure what you’re arguing here. You seem to be suggesting that the merits of a boycott hinge at least partly on the way a country’s PR department presents itself, independent of the abuses themselves— i.e. that a boycott of Russia and China would somehow be more justified if they simply started presenting themselves as “liberal democracies”.I find this an odd line of reasoning.

There are several angles to Israel’s project, one of which is the projection of the image of a modern, liberal democratic state. This is seen as integral to the continuation of the occupation as widespread censure and condemnation could well lead to more serious political and economic sanctions. This is why a major part of hasbara campaigns involve manipulating public opinion in Europe and elsewhere. Israel sees BDS as a threat as it threatens their attempt to normalise their political status and you can measure how effective BDS is by it’s reaction. Any involvement in BDS is now a crime in Israel. They have lobbied governments, most notably in Germany, the UK and US to criminalise BDS and extand the definition of anti-semeitism to include it. An Israeli court just fined a new zealand teenager for her paricipaiton in a successful campaign to prevent Lorde from playing a concert in Tel Aviv.

I actually had not realized this. Didn’t even know what “BDS” meant until you sent me looking it up. I agree it’s a relevant factor I hadn’t considered when making my decision; I don’t think it distinguishes the Palestinian crisis from others as profoundly as you seem to, though. Surely we should stand up for the oppressed even when they don’t have a voice.

Im qute shocked you have’nt heard of it. Its a fairly high profiile campaign thats been going on for years.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/14/bds-boycott-divestment-sanctions-movement-transformed-israeli-palestinian-debate

Sure, but consider this anaolgy. Workers are treated badly by many employers, and perhaps many business should be boycotted as a result, but in the case of a strike you have a clear choice to cross the picket line.

In Palestine you have an oppressed people calling for solidarity in a non-violent protest against their opressors. Regardless of the percieved moral imperative in oter cases, this a clear cry for support. Its an unambigious line to be crossed or respected.

Yeah, but in one way it’s an even better example: last year my hypothetical principled boycotty stand would prevent me from hanging out with you; this year, that would be cool. And yet you were the same damn person all along, no more deserving of ostracism last year than this. I understand the Big Picture demands for such sacrifice, but I don’t necessarily agree with them in every case.

Well no. There’s a question of scale here as well. All struggles are not equal. The restrictions on abortion, though reprehensible were not in any way comparable with the human rights abuses and misery the Palestinians are subjected to.

That said, had campaigners requested a cultural boycott in ordr to put pressure on the government, I would hope it would have been respected.

It doesn’t just seem inconsequential; I believe it actually is, in the same way that neither Vladimir Putin or any of his cronies had any slight idea or interest in the fact that a midlist SF writer from Canada had breached their borders. But if my entry into St. Petersburg did convey any kind of message, then surely the statements I publicly made there— I referred to Putin as a “cold-eyed sociopathic killer”— also conveyed a message, if no more forceful then at least no less so.Surely my pointed questions to reporters and civilians and fellow authors in China— about Tibet, and government censorship, and social scoring— spoke as clearly as my willingness to make the trip.

Symbolism is important. “Just a drop in the ocean, but the ocean is made up of drops”.

Paul Simon was asked something like that, after he actually did go to apartheid South Africa to collaborate with fellow artists during the boycott. Someone put to him the question: “As a Jew, how would you have felt about one of your colleagues traveling to Nazi Germany to perform?”Simon answered: “You mean, to play with Jews?”

Ye-ah – Simon has never seemed all that comfortable with his decision, and his position is questionable at best.

But to clarify, are you saying you would have broken the apartheid boycott. Would you have played Sun City?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/hemimastigotes-supra-kingdom-1.4715823

Now I was born in a country torn as it was being torn apart by a civil war at the intersection of the East and the West and really nothing grinds my gear as much as partisans from either side trying to justify themselves or people from the West swinging their moral dongs at the rest of us while doing basically fuck all about it. (y’all like cheap oil and staples and don’t try to convince me otherwise, the voting records are clear year to year) Naturally all of them are joke fodder for realpolitik cynics and I’m disappointed that people on this blog are taking such a naive stance on all of the above issues. Well no, naivety I can understand, after all I read books by foreign authors on the conflict in my country and it’s simply laughable how much they don’t know or missed and drew horrendously bad conclusion because they forgot that they don’t know what they don’t know. Really it’s the foolish assumption that they have the right to judge other people that pisses me off. There was this great line by Sisko in DS9: It’s easy to be a saint in paradise.

John Rodriguez,

Well, it’s perfectly normal doublethink. We all know well, the media have no particular motivation to stick to the truth, and lots of motivation to twist and turn it. We all know well, if you don’t have a clue, better shut up and listen (or, as my old wise sensei, C64-san put it: „?Out of data error“). But the pressure to have an opinion is just too big. So you use the data you get from the media, because you don’t have another. Usually, you get your “own” opinion from the media, too – people who try to think from themselves, divert from it much less than they ought.
I’m aware of these mechanisms, but I s t i l l participate in this. The environmental pressure to fit in, to adapt, is just too big. I’ve spent too much time trying to convince people to believe their own eyes, as not to learn: Seeing is not believing, believing is seeing. Outside of your belief system, you’re dead matter, blind, deaf and brainless.

Peter Watts: No, that’s exactly my point. I was talking practicalities, not symbolism— and practically, BDS is targeting not Israel but Israel/US. The US will continue to support Israel regardless of any boycott; shit, the very article you pointed me to suggests that the boycott has in fact ramped-up support for Israel. I mean, making survivors of Hurricane Harvey certify that they won’t participate in BDS before they qualify for disaster relief? Shutting down boycott-related discussion on campuses? Moving the fucking embassy to Jerusalem?

The fact that we both abhor these things is beside the point. The point is— practically— that the US will not let Israel fail, for fucked-up religious and political reasons of their own. So like it or not, BDS is tantamount to taking on the ‘Murricans. Which is too big to cave to a boycott. Which puts the issue back into China/Russia territory.

This is a misreading of both the aims and targets of BDS. It is precisely the intransigence of US policy which necessitates a wider campaign. Israel is not solely a dependent on the US. It relies heavily on trade and political support from the European union and others. If Israel is delegitimised and isolated from trading partners it’s policies will have to change in order for it’s economy to survive.

It’s a gap in my focus, for sure. (Didn’t know about the Sami either, until someone pointed me in the right direction). My default perspective is biological and species-level: I regard humankind in general as an out-of-control pest species wrecking the global environment, and intramural conflict as the equivalent of competing anthills duking it out for territory. (In that sense, the entire Middle-East conflict is typically ridiculous, rooted as it is in conflicting fairy tales about whose Invisible Friend promisedwhat patch ofscrubland to who.)I learn about more local conflicts/abuses by reading the news and/or when people like you point them out to me, but Middle East issues have never been a specific interest of mine.

Sure, but since the conflict over middle east and its energy resources has been perhaps one of the primary factors in the wrecking of the global environment, I would suggest that it’s worthy of attention.

That was a really good article, though. I like the Guardian’s coverage.

Yeah, and despite the fact that I don’t agree with everything there I deliberately picked something that gives a rounded view of the issue.

Except it’s not so unambiguous according to that Guardian angle, which quoted pro-Palestinians with real misgivings about the movement. (Not that that matters especially to my own mind; people should base their decisions on more substantive reasons than everybody else is doing it). And the same article explicitly states that “Nearly all of the corporate and student-led divestments have been selective: they have not targeted Israel as a whole, but only settlements and occupation.”Which means it wouldn’t apply to my appearance in any event.

You conflating the boycott and divestment parts elements there. Historically, divestment has focussed on the occupied territories. The economic and cultural boycott is generally targeted at Israel as a whole.

You’re probably right, in terms of absolute numbers. On a per-capita basis, however— and using the abortion label as shorthand for the overall hand of Catholicism in your country— you might have a hard time telling any of the thousands of kids victimized by those fuckers that they didn’t suffer “comparably” to the Palestinians.

With all due respect Peter, Ive forgotten more about the abuses of the Catholic church in my country than you will ever know, and I can say without equivocation that appalling as it was there is virtually nothing in the history that compares to the suffering of the Palestinians. There was no Nakba, no Sabra and Shatila, no ‘mowing of the grass’. It is an entirely different situation. If you want an Irish comparison you can look to Northern Ireland.

Again, that is exactly my point. (Maybe I’m just not being clear.)You speak of the symbolic impact (such as it is) of my willingness to travel into the heart of darkness, and fair enough. But then you also have to accept the symbolic impact of the things I say once I get there, which you don’t seem to.

You seem to be arguing for the inconsequentiality of your presence, yet also arguing that the consequentiality of your speech.

Here’s a suggestion. Ask your host if he can arrange passage for you into the West Bank. See what happens. Speak out in favour of BDS, see what happens.

I prefer the term “ignore”. There’s an almost Newspeakian connotation to your use of “break”, as though we’ve all signed onto the same contract and I am somehow in violation by doing something different. You can’t break a deal you never agreed to.

You cross a picket line, you break the boycott, you violate a sanction. These are common adjectives.

But to answer your question, it depends on the scenario. If I’d been invited to P.W. Botha’s birthday celebrations, certainly not.If I’d been invited to visit Nelson Mandela, in a flash. If I’d been invited to teach a writing workshop to underprivileged kids, also yes, assuming the chances of me getting beaten to death en route were low.

If I was invited to a genre event by someone I’ve been corresponding with for years— an aspiring marine-biologist/filmmaker who I advised on career choices, and argued over consciousness issues, someone who’s been trying to get me over there for a visit since 2016 despite knowing exactly where I stand on apartheid— then yes. I would go then, too.

Under the latter two scenarios, you would not be breaking the boycott, which applied to cultural events and normalisation of same. It did not apply to charities, activists, private visits etc.

I’m not saying you’re wrong. I’m not saying I’m right. Maybe I’m not; maybe I’ll come back home shaking with disillusion and betrayal, and feeling like I’ve been played as a patsy, and swearing to never make that mistake again.But I take that risk every time I travel to a land with a shitty human-rights record (and I include Canada in that list; do you have any idea how we treat our First-Nations people?).

At the very least, though, I can say I’m being consistent across platforms. I don’t think you can.

Well, Im glad at least that we were able to have a constructive conversation, and thank you for your consideration of my points.

As regarding personal conviction or consistency? Apart from the issues Ive raised above regarding the efficacy of boycotts, I decided in 2003 that I would not travel to the US and have refused to go to work conferences on several occasions since. I wouldn’t dream of going to Saudi Arabia or other repressive states and in general I wouldn’t take a long haul flight anywhere for environmental reasons. Flying to China, or even Russia seems outrageously irresponsible on those grounds alone.

You can find Palestinians in the Jaffa neighborhood of Tel Aviv.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa

Ken McE: Wow, somehow a random Canadian author has been made responsible for the behavior of peoples and governments across half the world, and I almost missed it. Way to step up Canada! Here I had mistaken him for being just an author, in fact a Science Fiction author.

Hush, you. Watts is farther out on a limb than usual, and most of the arguments to this point have been cogent and cordial. I personally find it riveting and informative. This is what high level discourse looks like. Let’s not try to shut down such a rare thing in 2018 with reductive sarcasm in a misplaced attempt to defend our capably articulate host. He’s much better at it than you are.

Not sure if this got lost in the moderation queue of if Peter’s just sick of me but…

Ken McE:
Wow, somehow a random Canadian author has been made responsible for the behavior of peoples and governments across half the world, and I almost missed it.Way to step up Canada!Here I had mistaken him for being just an author, in fact a Science Fiction author.

Here’s one of these lowly Sci Fi authors showing awareness and support of BDS…

Iain M Banks: The BDS campaign for justice for the Palestinian people is one I would hope any decent, open-minded person would support. Gentile or Jew, conservative or leftist, no matter who you are or how you see yourself, these people are our people, and collectively we have turned our backs on their suffering for far too long.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/apr/05/iain-banks-cultural-boycott-israel

And to clarify, as there seems to have been some (perhaps willful) misinterpretation here. Im not suggesting that you shouldn’t visit Israel or associate with Israelis. Im all in favour of conversation, debate etc.

Im suggesting that authors, artists, musicians, academics etc should boycott cultural and academic events in solidarity with Palestinian civil society who have made this request as part of the non-violent BDS campaign.

Peter Watts:
OK. Although I can tell you right now, based on ongoing correspondence,that at least my main contact for this thing is profoundly opposed the Netanyahu’s regime in general and the Palestinian occupation in particular.But I will certainly pursue the issue further.

One thing worth mentioning is that, unless your contact is Haredim then he has almost certainly served in the IDF. One thing that is often overlooked is that despite the terrible crimes committed by Israeli soldiers they are also victims of the occupation and their time in the military leaves many of them deeply traumatised.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkbwbk

droid:
Israel eh? Deeply disappointing.

I’ve skimmed through your comments on this thread, and I must say… the level of ignorance, hypocrisy and asinine masturbatory self-righteousness is absolutely dumbfounding on your part. Let me just say that you know nothing about anything when it comes to Israel, its security challenges, the rationale behind its actions and so on and so forth. You just don’t. Whatever illusion you might have of understanding local complexities you got from watching the brainwashing machines like BBC is precisely that, an illusion.

I’m just going to leave it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iZjuiKZ2ho

Oh, and BTW, I’m a proud Israeli and ex-IDF serviceman. Peter, you are more than welcome to Israel. I’m a huge fan of yours and will be absolutely delighted to see you in Israel. If you let me buy you a beer when you are here, I would be absolutely happy to.

Hi Peter – as an Israeli I’d like to welcome you to our little corner of hell.
I don’t have a lot to say about BDS. it is, of course, in my interest that you do visit, but I’ll understand if you don’t.
There are ways to take part in tours of the west bank and various areas of contention, but it’s better not to advertize such intentions on social media. Israel’s border control is notoriously good at following activists online and preventing “unwanted” visitors from entering.

I was talking practicalities, not symbolism— and practically, BDS is targeting not Israel but Israel/US. The US will continue to support Israel regardless of any boycott.

I think the main target of the boycott is Israel/US, and trying to break that connection. It isn’t necessarily true that US will always continue to support Israel, or any rate, there are people who think that US domestic politics can change to reduce support for Israel current policies. We’ll see if that’s true, but the goal of BDS is more about symbolic political gestures and eventual votes than actual economic pressure.

Well that video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iZjuiKZ2ho) makes clear to me why some people advocate BDS so strongly and with such focus. It reminds me of conversations I had with some people when Obama was in power. Their dislike, even hatred, went well beyond the political.

There seem to me two threads running through this. One probably leads back to the British occupation of Ireland and is political. The other seems to be an anti-Semitism comparable to the racism I detected underlying some of the antipathy to Obama. Both threads have the troubling facet of ignoring individuals in order to service political and other ends, which I also feel when I am told by way of an incredibly narrow and reductive argument where I must stand on Apartheid, or read that picket lines are broken not ignored.

Regarding the latter, the term I’ve generally heard used in the more neutral “crossed”. Whether one uses “broken”, “crossed”, or “ignored” seems to me to depend on whether one is in the union on strike, management, or someone who doesn’t give a shit either way. There are also those who are not in a union or management who are trying to pay rent while putting food on the table while being subject to taxes which pay the salaries of unionized government workers and management, and not really able to make ends meet. If they choose to become scabs, are they breaking a picket line, or choosing not to rob a drug store to feed themselves and their family?

This willingness to ignore individual positions to serve political, racial, ideological, or what-have-you, ends is something I find problematic, and having thought about it a bit, I’m ready to discount arguments made in support of BDS in the same way I ended up having to discount the arguments some people were making against Barack Obama’s policies, not because some aspects of those arguments didn’t potentially have some merit, but because those arguments weren’t really about the policies at all.

Vova: I’ve skimmed through your comments on this thread, and I must say… the level of ignorance, hypocrisy and asinine masturbatory self-righteousness is absolutely dumbfounding on your part. Let me just say that you know nothing about anything when it comes to Israel, its security challenges, the rationale behind its actions and so on and so forth. You just don’t. Whatever illusion you might have of understanding local complexities you got from watching the brainwashing machines like BBC is precisely that, an illusion.

I was wondering how long it would take for something like this to pop up.

The fact that you think the BBC is some kind of anti-Israel brainwashing machine is indicative of your ability to understand the world. This is the organisation that refused to broadcast a humanitarian appeal due to Israeli lobbying, that fired an accomplished mid-east correspondent because of mild criticism of Israel and one that leaves the majority of it’s viewers assuming that Palestine is occupying Israel.

Im well aware of the rationale behind Israel’s actions and its not radically different from any other occupier in history. Destroy, dominate, coerce, erase, or as Moshe Dayan so eloquently put it: “We don’t have a solution, and you will continue living like dogs, and whoever wants will go, and will see how this procedure will work out…”

VovaI’m just going to leave it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iZjuiKZ2ho

Fantastic. A bunch of Irish people being far to polite to tell a cretin to f*** off and simply saying whatever they have to to get rid of him.

-DA-,

Yes, it was. And believe me, I’d swap my mind for yours any time.
I can’t take without giving. I’m trying to add a different point of view to the debate. Yours is as valid as mine of course, and I’m interested in the facts and other points of view as well. But there are different levels in any discussion, different aspects.
Your irritation proves my point: It’s not fun to divert from your usual track of mind, try something else. But this is a science fiction author’s blog, for hell’s sake, he gets paid for considering different points of view.
What I see here is a serious discussion by intelligent and well-informed people, little doggies performing the trick Pavlov has taught them: ruminate information they mostly get from magical rectangles with pictures and letters on them, in a certain way and with no questions asked. It’s fun, that’s why millions of little doggies in the world do it all the time. It pays off to obey the master, he might make you his top bitch and the pack will look up to you, you get rewarded with real status and real power. That’s what „serious“ means.
This is data incest, specialization, domestication by selection: The better you get at serving the powers that be, the more it hurts to do anything else. Well, if that’s your choice, it’s not a bad one. But when you’re done licking Pavlov’s balls, you might pay some attention to the jester’s wrecking ball.
Consider this a footnote. Now back to the doggies show.

paul z: And believe me, I’d swap my mind for yours any time.

Yeah, but only because you’re prone to making wild assertions based on poor information. I assure you, it wouldn’t be an upgrade for anyone who frequents the ‘Crawl. Even for you.

paul z: But this is a science fiction author’s blog, for hell’s sake, he gets paid for considering different points of view.

I would have been happy to consider any point of view on the actual topic at hand. My objection is specifically to those comments attempting to de-legitimize or shut down the conversation.

I’m also not certain why you think that the points you’re getting at are in anyway way novel or unfamiliar to this particular author or anyone who follows him, no matter how floridly you express them. He seems willing to have the conversation anyway, and I’m interested in hearing it.

Since further engagement with you on this off-topic would run contrary to my stated goals, you’ll have to forgive me for declining to address you further. Apologies if it has already proved distracting for anyone else.

listedproxyname: Criminal aggression is aggression, of course, but there’s also a criminal transgression – of the laws that you did not know and agreements you were not told about.

Ah yes, the secret truth that Western/liberal/UN/Masonic-controlled media try to suppress. But which are somehow never formulated into a rational, coherent argument that can be fact-checked. How could I forget about those?

Vova: I’ve skimmed through your comments on this thread, and I must say… the level of ignorance, hypocrisy and asinine masturbatory self-righteousness is absolutely dumbfounding on your part.

And here’s another one! It’s like comments section Bingo!

Peter Watts: I like to dine out on the personal measures I have taken to minimize my footprint— not having kids buys me a Godzilla’s worth of wiggle room, as well as littler things like not owning a car— but long distance air travel is a huge honking impact and I don’t deny it.

That’s one I struggle with too. I get to say I have to do it (mostly) for work, but the guilt is still there.

Ken McE: Wow, somehow a random Canadian author has been made responsible for the behavior of peoples and governments across half the world, and I almost missed it. Way to step up Canada! Here I had mistaken him for being just an author, in fact a Science Fiction author.

It is odd how “OGH in Israel” turned into “OGH supports the Israeli government”.

That is some of the best fan art I’ve seen posted here.

I was about to rip ya a new one (virtually)

But then I saw you comment:

Peter Watts,

“I actually had not realized this. Didn’t even know what “BDS” meant until you sent me looking it up. I agree it’s a relevant factor I hadn’t considered when making my decision; I don’t think it distinguishes the Palestinian crisis from others as profoundly as you seem to, though. Surely we should stand up for the oppressed even when they don’t have a voice. ”

And I’m glad I checked my impulse.

Omar Barghouti is one of the founders of the BDS campaign, is quite articulate and explains clearly his reasons for the campaign and why Isreal and why right now.

I’ve had friends visit Tel Aviv who had a wonderful time there and I hope you do too.

Gotta be honest, I have met a lot of Israelis and a lot of Palestinians. The Israelis were always nicer, so when it comes to those two I prefer Israel, despite not agreeing with some of the shit they do

So… on a slightly lighter note…
Peter, when you get to Tel Aviv, other than your panel appearances, do you plan something like a meet-and-greet with fans? Or a pub night?
I’m a long time fan [1] and would love to have the opportunity of meeting one of my all-time favorite authors in person.

[1] humblebrag warning: I was involved with the israeli translation of Blindsight as a sort of science advisor to the translator, who is a very good friend

Greggles: The US repeatedly vetoed UNSC resolutions to put Apartheid South Africa under sanctions until there was widespread support amongst the US voting population.

Yeah, like, apparently, mr. Watts missed this little detail when praising certain country’s government. Though I shall repeat again I do not blame him for visiting anyone in particular, it is his awareness that is important – at least he will be able to make right choices in time.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-un-nazi-glorification-resolution-vote-against-free-speech-far-right-white-supremacist-neo-alt-a8066761.html

“America was one of three nations to vote against the yearly resolution, called: “Combating glorification of Nazism, Neo-Nazism and other practices that contribute to fuelling contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance”.”

“The two other countries that voted against the resolution were Ukraine and Palau, while 131 voted in favour and 48 nations abstained.”

Francis Buck,

You might consider a symbiosis between the kaiju and some sort of anaerobic or plant-like mutants much better at photosynthesis than normal plants (maybe they can recycle global warming heat?): As they split carbon dioxide up, there’s a rapid rise of oxygen in the atmosphere and lots of carbon as construction material for bodies – conditions which favor big, fast-evolving beings. Kaiju breathe this oxygen, and pay back the oxygen-farters some way, maybe by digesting biomass for manure.
You might also say, it’s the destabilization of Earth biosphere by man which opened the door for the Bactocalypse (pretty much like the destabilization of Earth politics opened the door for atavisms like Hitler or Trump): Chaos also favors those who change and adapt fast and have no scruples. Maybe it could become a modern version of “War Of The Worlds”: As Wells showed colonialism from the point of view of the victims, you could show the devastation of environment from the point of view of creatures who can’t keep pace with the changes.
But it’s your story alone, I’m just suggesting stuff. I’m quite sure, you have better ideas. Good luck!
[OK, calling rats and cockroaches “primitive” was the wrong choice of word, but I forgive myself. I hope they forgive me comparing them indirectly to Trump.]

Oh. I meant „screamed“ in a humorous way. But OK, time to say goodbye.
You’re still one of my favorite writers, not only because your level of optimism is almost low enough to be realistic. I stuck to you, because your answers were still among the most intelligent I got. I take it, you didn’t read my text about how basic principles of Darwinism apply already on the level of physics, but you might.
The text about consciousness you gave me contained the type of research I concluded at school, to resist my teachers’ attempts to assassinate me with boredom: I just looked into my own head and excluded anything I didn’t see my consciousness doing. Nice to see, sound science confirms my musings, but conclusions along the lines of “the dishwasher is superfluous, because it doesn’t cook, as some people used to believe before” are ridiculous.
As for wild assertions, heavens, you can check anything I claimed in any physics book. Seriously, what’s more likely: “Photons don’t have mass, and I need to redefine mass to make this true, and take this redefiniton one step back, inventing ‘relativistic mass’, and live happily ever after, without giving a further thought to it”, or “after falling below a threshold of size, the behavior of mass changes”? Science has wonderful modules in it, as anyone can see, but there’s too much fudge DNA in it, and they need to be rearranged a bit. Someone with more brains than I have should get to work at it.
Since I won’t comment any longer, here’s one last about the highest step of human development you talk about in NF. You forgot that one resource is limited: Emotions. Whatever such unrestricted beings might feel, they’d have to mix it from ingredients we already know. Maybe they’d leave our universe to find new emotions, new forces, new values outside the good-evil-neutral spectrum that governs ours. Maybe they’d explore other states than our to be or not to be, maybe discover some God who neither exists nor not exists, but qr4fz – is in a state unknown to us, beyond anything we can understand. We can only grasp our own world, and there are enough hints in it to conclude, it can’t be the only one. Maybe they realize, they can’t change the past, they can’t undo Auschwitz, and do the only thing angels can do: Rebel. Go after whatever force created our world, try to overturn it, and rewrite the laws of nature, so they can erase suffering from history and future. And fail, as all the others before, because that’s the only thing that can happen. You’re still ages from understanding the fractal pattern.
But you made your choice, and I envy you. Keep writing great stuff, keep asking questions, keep turning a blind eye to the world outside scientific journals, where the answers are. Resist the temptation and be happy. Good luck.

Hey!

Just wanted to say I’m very excited for your visit to Israel!

Have tickets for both days with your talks (Man is the Utopia site bad…); will be happy to also say hello at e.g pub meeting, etc.

Safe flight and easy passage through the terminal!

Y.: *no, really they did.

Not this nonsense again.

Europeans (and Americans) conveniently forget that most Europeans (and many Americans) either actively sided with the Nazis, or were openly sympathetic to Hitler’s regime. The Axis was more than just Germany, Italy and Japan. But give them half a chance and they readily bleat about “Muslim support for Hitler”, even though this support, as evidenced by the article you linked, never amounted to anything.

Christian support, on the other hand, massively contributed to the Nazi war effort. Is anyone writing pseudohistorical articles about that relationship?

Y.: One side are people in thrall to a virulent and thriving meme complex endorsed by all the right people*.

The article you linked to clarifies that there is no difference between delusional Islamic fundamentalist bigotry and all other delusional fundamentalist bigotries. While I agree, I don’t see how it can be interpreted as support for your previous statement.

Y.: Nazis wished Germans were Muslim because they thought it’d make their task of eradicating the threat posed by global Jewish conspiracies easier and thought Islam was more suited for a militaristic nation than Christianity.

That’s a part of the opinion expressed in the opinion piece you linked to. Facts, however, indicate that a) Nazis never spread Islam, or elements of Islam, through their militarist nation, and b) Christian nations did not embrace Nazism out of a fear of Bolshevism, but out of a love of fascism. In the early years, the two ideologies coexisted quite peacefully.

Ancient irrational hatred of Jews at least contributed to this Christian embracing of fascism, and several European countries participated in WW2 purges and killing of Jews with no prompting from the Nazis. Let’s not even get into past Christian crimes against Jews in Europe, which would require a blog of their own.

Y.: Belief in global Jewish conspiracies with nefarious aims and implausible capabilities these days is found mostly on /pol.

You must have never visited the US, or certain parts of it. I can point you to the results of the recent presidential election, and the groups who have voiced support for the winner of that election. True, it’s nowhere near most of the population, but Judeo-Masonic-Globalist conspiracies are very much alive and well in the most powerful Christian-majority nation in the world.

Y.: Islamic fundamentalism which is given cover and protected under the guise of fighting against ‘islamophobia’ and supported by multiple rather rich countries

Belief in global Islamic conspiracies with nefarious aims and implausible capabilities these days is found mostly on… rifters.com?

Y.: Reflect on this and then tell me if you’re still so sure fundie Islam is not a bigger threat than Christian dominionism..

What you’re posting to are opinion pieces, and everyone’s entitled to an opinion. Such facts are presented within those pieces fail to support the claims. Reflect on this and tell me if you’re still so sure every blog post written by bigots is a relevant source of information.

Y.: If delusional bigots have their own country and access to nuclear weapons, it’s something else.

Israel has had nuclear weapons for years, and so has North Korea. I believe international pressure will prove a sufficient deterrent. Climate change will wipe us out long before any fundamentalist lunacy.

I liked the pictures.

I’ve always wondered about that myself. Given that they couldn’t really settle anywhere that wasn’t already occupied, why not at least displace the fuckers who’d tried to wipe you from the face of the map? Would there be no satisfaction at all in pushing them aside, grinding them under, taking all their best stuff and watching the door hit their asses on the way out?

Re why Israel?
Zionism started well before WWII.
I know it’s Wikipedia but have a glance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Zionism
The World Zionist Organization was founded in 1897 with the explicit goal of founding a Jewish state in Palestine. Europe had a long history of being horrible to the Jews — the Zionists thought enough was enough, time to get out.
Isreal didn’t “just happen” — it was the result of a long plan.

Y.: Suure. The hundreds of millions of Muslims who think Sharia is preferable to Roman or English style legal codes are a conspiracy. So are all the people who were cheering on those Daesh fanatics.

Yet for all this zealotry, only a handful of Muslim-majority countries have gone 100% Sharia.

Hundreds of millions of fanatics, nefarious secret support from multiple rather rich countries, and they can’t even clean up their own back yard. What’s the world coming to?